Unmasking the Goddess

Hiding Behind the Walls of the Church

            "Too many Christians are hard pressed to give first and last names
of a dozen unbelievers in their lives ...
Our absence not only removes the light from the lives of of people trapped in darkness,
but it also limits the influence we might have in other parts of our lives,
an influence God very much wants us to have."
--from Dan Edelen, responding to a comment on his blog at Cerulean Sanctum.

    I have a challenge for you. If you're reading this blog and you're a Christian, grab a scrap piece of paper and number it from 1 - 12. Now see if you can list the names of 12 people you know who are not Christ followers. Don't cheat; these have to be people you see on a regular or semi-regular basis: friends, neighbors, relatives, co-workers, etc. I tried it and the results were, to put it mildly, disappointing. I only made it to 11. Here's my list (first initials only to protect privacy):

1. L
2. Z
3. N
4. J
5. G
6. C
7. S
8. Z
9. R
10. R
11. S

    Sadly, that's it. I can't believe that's all I can come up with. I know bunches more people who aren't professing Christians, but I don't keep up with them regularly. I don't know if I've given up on them, or it's that we don't have much in common, or we feel slightly uncomfortable with our differences in faith, but it needs to change. How can I be salt and light if I'm behind a church wall somewhere singing How Great Is Our God with my friends?

    Dan Edelen blogged recently at Cerulean Sanctum about how Christians aren't so good at networking. We don't work at it much and so we don't know many influencers, who are crucial to success in business. Dan describes Christians like this: "We have our ghetto and we’re fine with it. And that’s a shame because I think it keeps too many of us back. It prevents us from being all we can be. It means we rarely interact with outsiders, including unbelievers. It backs us into a corner. Worse, it robs the  world of the light of Christ in us. If we don’t interact with the darker world, how then will it fill with light?"

    I have another challenge for you. If you're reading this blog and you're NOT a Christian, make a list and see if you can write down 12 people outside your own faith (whether you're a Wiccan, Goddess worshipper, et al). Are people of other faiths better networked and more inclusive than Christians?

    Today I'm wondering if that's true ... and thinking that I need to cultivate more contacts outside my faith. Jesus did.

God as "a big black woman" in THE SHACK, a new million copy bestseller

"Well, Mackenzie, don't just stand there gawkin'
with your mouth open like your pants are full,"
said the big black woman as she turned
and headed across the deck, talking the whole time.
"Come and talk to me while I get supper on."

--Elousia/Papa/God in The Shack

If you haven't yet heard of The Shack, by William P. Young, you probably will soon. This new novel, written by a Christian who wanted to portray a very personal God, has sold over a million copies in the last year and is currently at #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. Not only that, The Shack (Windblown Media) has been acquired by Hachette Book Group's Faith Words division, which will now market the heck out of the little paperback that could. I don't think it's going away anytime soon; Hollywood is reportedly knocking on the Shack's door.

Here's an overview: The book tells the story of the spiritual awakening of Mackenzie Phillips, whose daughter is abducted by a serial killer while on a family camping trip. Evidence of the crime is discovered in a rundown old shack in the woods. Years later, a still grieving Mackenzie receives an unusual note inviting him to meet "Papa" at the shack.

Curious, Mackenzie goes and discovers three people: "Papa," a middle-aged black woman with a Southern accent, who also calls herself Elousia; Jesus, a Middle Eastern young man; and "Sarayu," a mysterious (and hard to see) Asian woman. These three, who turn out to be God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, invite Mackenzie to spend the weekend in the shack. He does, resulting in the opportunity for long conversations and the chance to ask all of the hard questions revolving around his recent tragedy.

I don't want to give much away, but there are lots of mystical occurrences, revelations about God's nature and how the Trinity functions, and a "did it really happen?" twist at the end.

As you can imagine, The Shack has been pretty controversial in evangelical Christian circles. Reaction is polarized, with gushing praise ("it changed my life and I'm buying a copy for everyone I know") to passionate denouncements ("it's heresy; read it and burn"). One of the most clear and cogent non-endorsements comes from well known Seattle pastor Mark Driscoll, who has labeled the book as pro-goddess worship.

I just finished reading The Shack, and here's what I like:

• God is portrayed as personal, loving, full of grace and forgiveness, and anxious for relationship with Mackenzie. This is a God who repeatedly tells His children, "I'm especially fond of you."
• Anyone who's experienced a tragedy can relate to Mackenzie's overwhelming grief and anger at God. The book attempts to address the question of evil, and why bad things happen to good people.
• The author has the guts to tackle a subject that is nigh untouchable in evangelical circles--how to understand a Triune God and how the Trinity might work.
• Because of the controversial subject matter, Christian publishers wouldn't take it, and general market publishers were leery of the blatant Christian content. So, the author self-published it! I love that, and that it's been a success.
• Much like The Da Vinci Code, the ruckus surrounding the book gives people of faith a chance to talk about what we believe. I'm of the mind that anything that gets us thinking about the character of God and talking about how He works in our lives is a good thing. In the current culture, it's almost anathema to talk about Jesus outside the walls of the church; it's as if it's in poor taste or reveals us as intolerant.

Here's what I don't like about The Shack:

• The "did it happen or not?" dream twist, an overused device that often shows up in tired TV shows.
• God the father is not a person, but a spirit. He is personified and fully present in Jesus. Period. He can't be characterized as a black woman, a white woman, or any other kind of woman. It's just so limiting. I think it's a very false picture of an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, holy Creator God. It's a little something like trying to bottle and label a massive forest fire.
• Further, God is who he is. You can't just create your own pleasing image (whether it's a woman, a man, a puppy, or a flower) and force him to conform to that image just to increase your comfort level.
• Putting words in God's mouth is foolish. Who are we to put ourselves in God's place and say what we think he might say? God has already spoken. He took great care to make sure his words were delivered flawlessly through the prophets, through the Bible, and through Jesus himself. Here's a quote from Annie Dillard on our sometimes too casual approach to God: 

"Why do people in church seem like cheerful, brainless tourists
on a packaged tour of the Absolute? …
Does anyone have the foggiest idea what sort of power we blithely invoke?
Or, as I suspect, does no one believe a word of it?
...we should all be wearing crash helmets."
--Annie Dillard, Teaching a Stone to Talk

• When God has spoken, it's precise, it's logical and clear, it's consistent, and often unexpected. But the God of The Shack is talky, long winded, touchy-feely, and sometimes folksy (a slangy Southern accent comes and goes). 
• The Trinity is portrayed as a "circle of life" type community with no hierarchy. The three are just very, very good friends. The Bible, however, shows Jesus willingly submitting himself to God's authority. Jesus said repeatedly that he did what God the Father asked him to do. Portraying themselves as Father and Son in Scripture creates a very clear picture of hierarchy.

My pastor read the book and said people who read it need to know their theology. I'd agree; like any other book with spiritual content, read it, but don't swallow it. The author, after all, is only human and The Shack is not a revelation.

But don't lose sleep over it either; God doesn't need us to defend him. He's already spoken.

How Paganism connects with kids: A conversation with Christian activist Linda Harvey

"These new gods are dressed in Christian garb with an altered "Jesus"
who is no longer a savior, but can morph into a sentimental sap
 or a receiver of self-focused prayer as needed...
these squishy spiritual beliefs allow the self to be the real boss."

--Linda Harvey on contemporary paganism

Linda Harvey is a Christian woman who is passionate about drawing attention to the growing influence of paganism on the culture, particularly among kids. Her new book, Not My Child, sounds the warning bell for Christian parents unaware of the allure of the pagan worldview. She compares neo-pagan beliefs to core biblical principles and highlights the differences and the dangers. Her message is clear, concise, and sometimes discomforting.

Q.  Hi, Linda. Thanks for stopping by Unmasking the Goddess to chat a little about your new book, Not My Child: Contemporary Paganism and the New Spirituality: How, Why, and Where Paganism Connects with Kids. Why did you write this book? What need does it meet?

A.  Hi, Susy. I wrote this book because I felt a huge burden about the dark and questionable paths so many of our kids are walking today. God began to convict me about the barbaric way our kids are being raised, or in many cases, not raised. Kids are being encouraged to explore the daring, the nightmarish, and the profane with few limits--and sadly some of this is happening within Christian circles. Respect and gratitude toward God, restraint of human desires and knowledge of basic Christian doctrine are all being casually tossed out the window. So youth are open to an array of faith alternatives without realizing that many of them are spiritually incompatible with Christianity.

Q.  In the Introduction, you explain that your own personal introduction to the occult came through a ouija board. Can you tell me a little more? And, how are kids today encountering the occult?

A.  I explored some questionable faith practices during my teen and college years, because no one cautioned me against these pursuits. From the Ouija board to reincarnation to astrology, I read about the beliefs but only occasionally dabbled in the practices. Today, the occult is literally everywhere and many teens are doing much more than reading. They are fighting demons through fantasy from their earliest years; meditating; trying to contact the dead; fortune-telling; even casting spells. They are tutored through all the entertainment media--storybooks and novels laced with pagan themes, movies, TV shows, and Internet sites. Non-Christian school lessons on multiculturalism, earth studies, and diversity take them down paths toward respecting and trying out Eastern and Native American practices, most of which are centered around worship of pagan deities. And increasingly, all this is seen as just a part of developing one's "creativity." Parents who once would have known these practices violate faithful worship of Christ, are no longer saying "no."

Q.  In my experience, Paganism is a very eclectic movement and they resist having their beliefs and practices classified. From your own research, how would you sum up the core concepts of the Pagan worldview? How does it contradict the Christian worldview?

A.  I spend a whole chapter on this in my book, but yes, these are quite varied, but have some common elements. I define paganism as the attempt, either deliberately or through ignorance, to make contact with the supernatural realm, and the entities being sought are not the Christian Trinitarian God of Scripture. This violates the First Commandment:
'You shall have no other gods but Me" (the Lord speaking). It violates the prohibition in Deuteronomy 18 and elsewhere against sorcery, witchcraft, contacting the dead and fortune-telling. The practitioner seeks to gain spiritual power right now--without waiting on Gods timing and His powerand then to use it for one's own purposes. This is classic rebellion (as in 1 Samuel 15:23).

Q.  Pagans, Wiccans, and Goddess Worshipers would angrily deny that they practice any form of Satanism. Yet you argue that the demonic realm is a reality, with paganism as one of its satellites, and that this realization came as a result of the change in your own worldview from that of a scoffer and cynic to one who accepts the reality of supernatural evil. What brought about the change in worldview for you? And why do you believe paganism is an outgrowth of the demonic realm?

A.  I came to realize the power of the Holy Spirit in the changes I saw in my own life and those of my family, as we became Christians. And as I read and studied Scripture, it seemed to me the spiritual realm is the essential component of our faith, not the flesh. We as comfortable Christians in America tend to forget this. Its not just a morality code; it's the power of the Almighty in an unseen way. So we had better be willing to "test the spirits" all the time and know the true over the counterfeit. Pagan faiths are counterfeit, and the spiritual contact made is not from the Holy Spirit, but will seem deceptively attractive if one doesn't know Scripture. Despite their denials, the demonic realm is exactly what those who violate Scripture are encountering. They may believe they do not worship Satan, yet they are playing in his backyard. For those who search the Scriptures, though, the patterns become recognizable, and one can see the demonic army is quite busily at work in todays American culture.

Q.  Can you outline some of the goals of Paganism and the new spirituality that youve uncovered? Does this apply to every Pagan?

A.  Satan's number one goal is to separate humans forever from their Creator, and the classic methods are deception, dissension, distraction and destruction. I believe different methods figure more heavily in some types of paganism than others. For instance, the atheist is separated from God also, but that person would say he/she has no faith. Yet if you start asking questions it turns out they usually do have at least idolatry in play through self-worship. This may seem like a stretch of the definition of paganism, but actually, one finds many atheists who are quite comfortable with engaging in some types of occult practices that essentially begin to open them up to the demonic. They usually think of it as stress-reduction, or mind-control, but it turns out to be the enemys age-old trick of taking pride and turning it into a gateway for the occult. So, pagan practices and styles are being introduced at every level in America and globally today, in a return to the bondage of the primitive.

Q.  What are some of the dangers of living the Pagan lifestyle? Can you talk about the tie between Pagan beliefs and early sexuality?

A.  The pagan worldview accommodates worldly pleasures of all kinds, revels in them and seeks them out, and teens are especially tempted in todays flesh-obsessed society. Pagan teens more likely to get involved in drugs, alcohol and bizarre body modification trends (like piercing and tatooing). They tend to become quite fascinated with death, suffering and the darker side of existence. It's no surprise that depression and other mental health issues surface more often. And God's ideal of male-female marriage and abstinence beforehand is really foreign to the pagan lifestyle. Where one finds Wiccan, pagan and alternate spirituality, one finds early sex and even homosexuality and cross-gender behaviors. One also finds support for feminism and abortion. An early initiation into sexual behaviors or feelings frequently leads the adolescent to reject Christianity, and go out and seek a "faith" that will accommodate these sexual desires. Paganism increasingly is the chosen alternative.The flesh tempts one away, and then sadly, often keeps the person in bondage and away from a genuine relationship with Christ.

Q.  How is the Pagan message effectively reaching kids? Are kids raised in the church pretty much immune to the allure of Paganism, or are they vulnerable, too?

A.  Kids are exposed to the pagan message in schools, on TV (they listen to Oprah, too), over the Internet, in novels, and in Christian youth groups and colleges. This is one of the major reasons I wrote the book, Susy, because of teens within Christian church circles who are essentially becoming pagans. I can't count the number of e-mails I receive through our website, where we take a very firm stand on the sexuality issues, including homosexuality, and paganism. And the e-mails essentially chew me out because Jesus would never be so intolerant. The new "jesus" worshipped by so many of these kids is comfortable with worshipping God as a female, witchcraft, gender change, homosexuality, etc. and these kids boldly believe this is what being a real Christian is.

Q.  Can you recommend a couple of books or websites for those who want more information on the Paganism-Kid connection?

A.  I can certainly recommend my site, www.missionamerica.com. And for the "other side," I would recommend, with great discernment and caution, www.witchvox.com. Go to the youth listings and just read. It will take your breath away to see how sadly deceived these kids are.

Like to browse blogs? Try the new Google Reader!

I don't know if you're like me, but I have about 10 or 12 blogs that I enjoy keeping up with. The problem is that sometimes I forget their names or web addresses, or forget to check them for a long time. Some of them I subscribe to by e-mail, but if I'm busy my e-mail inbox piles up with unread blog posts and I start hitting the delete key (always painful because maybe I'm missing something really insightful or funny or brilliant!)

A while back someone suggested I download an RSS Reader (RSS stands for simple syndication), but I really didn't know which one was best and I wasn't quite clear on how it worked.

So, keeping up with favorite blogs was frustrating and inefficient....until I found Google Reader!

Google Reader searches out my favorite blogs, collects new blog posts, and keeps them in a neat and tidy list until I have time to visit them, now all in one place, and enjoy them at my leisure.

And I LOVE it!

If you enjoy a few blogs, you HAVE to try it, if you don't already have an RSS reader (and people smarter than me have determined that only 6% of blog readers do).

If you'd like to know more, there is a clear and helpful step-by-step guide to Google Reader on the Pipers' family blog.

If this whole idea is still confusing to you, here's a cute, short video called "RSS in Plain English" that explains exactly what Google Reader does.

Try it out....I think you'll like it as much as I do. And you'll feel more techie because you'll be joining those 6%!

Oh, and just in case you're wondering, here's a quick list of my very favorite blogs:

• Cerulean Sanctum, by Dan Edelen
• Author Intrusion, by Lisa Samson
• Canadian Prairie Writer: Plain Text, by Cathi-Lyn Dyck
• Chip MacGregor, MacGregor Literary
• Christian Writers' Marketplace, by Sally Stuart
• Dale Fincher
• Desiring God, by John Piper & friends
• Eternal Perspectives, by Randy Alcorn
• From Where I Sit, by Michael Hyatt
• Internet Monk, by Michael Spencer
• Jonalyn Grace Fincher
• Maxgrace.com, by Bill Giovannetti
• Praise & Coffee, by Sue Cramer
• Rants & Ramblings: On life as a literary agent, by Rachelle Gardner
• The Writing Life, by Terry Whalin
• Think.Laugh.Weep.Worship., by Emily Hunter McGowin
• Wildfire Marketing, by Rob Eagar
• Your Writers Group, by Mick Silva

Happy reading!!

Goddess Worship in the News & Expelled: The Movie

A few newsy snacks relating to goddess worship and paganism...

• Earth worship on the rise among evangelical youth. Concerned Women for America reports that "many young people in evangelical churches are experimenting with the Wiccan religion....[citing] an article in Religion Journal which said youth pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention were worried about large numbers of evangelicals taking part in Wicca, a religion that involves nature worship, stresses moral autonomy, and includes remedies and spells." The article points to recent books and TV shows featuring Wiccan and witchcraft themes and suggests that they effectively kindle teen interest in "moral autonomy," as well as spell casting and earth worship.  (from "Earth worship on the rise among evangelical youth," by Allie Martin - OneNewsNow - 2/25/2008)
• MTV sits up and takes notice with "Young witches explain what they're really about." MTV online just ran a story about a 24 year-old Montana man, a witch who goes by the name Raven Digitalis. He's been a pagan priest for 4 years, and roams the streets of Missoula in a black trenchcoat, lace gloves, and purple eyeshadow (and a flair for the theatrical, methinks). He's pretty articulate about the appeal of paganism/goddess worship; Digitalis explains that people are drawn to personal empowerment, environmentalism, equality of the sexes, and the concept of karma. He also suggests there's a strong bent towards individualism:"Some people don't feel God in the church, so they seek out different expressions of God that are more personal or mystic," said Raven, who has mentored younger Pagans and is active in the online community. "[Witchcraft] is revolting against common views of God. That's a huge part of the appeal, especially for young people — that you don't have to follow the herd." (from "Far From Devil Worship and 'Harry Potter,' Young Witches Explain What They're Really about, "by Alex Mar, 3/25/2008)
• A new book suggests parents must guard against neopagan influence. "More than three-quarters of America's youth have engaged in at lease one type of psychic or witchcraft-related activity, beyond media exposure or horoscope usage," according to a new book by Linda Harvey called Not My Child: Contemporary Paganism & the New Spirituality. Harvey, founder of Mission America, says that nature-based ritual and sorcery are being offered on the all-you-can-eat American buffet to children of all ages while parents stand by, smiling indulgently while their children absorb the messages. Scary stuff; what should we do? Harvey maintains that "the task before us is to get our priorities straight and courageously show our kids the value of truth and the Christian worldview."
• Speaking of worldview, go see the new Ben Stein movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. My husband and I saw it last night and found it to be thought provoking, entertaining, and sometimes frightening. Stein, an actor, game show host, writer, and attorney, is widely considered the funniest Republican in Hollywood. He's also smart and opinionated. Expelled is his attempt to shake Americans awake to the scientific establishment's agenda to disseminate its atheistic worldview while quashing any other. Scientists open to the idea of intelligent design are openly, and on film, deemed ignorant and stupid by prominent Darwinians, along with being censured and sometimes fired from their posts at American universities. The film ends with Stein's interview with Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion.  Suffice it to say that Dawkins does not come off well and will probably not be putting this interview in his portfolio.

Meanwhile, there's a bit of an argument brewing in evangelical circles over a new allegorical best-selling novel called The Shack. Some Christians love it; some hate it. The controversy revolves around the portrayal of the trinity, specifically God the Father, portrayed as a woman. Shades of goddess worship? More in my next post....

Part 5 & Conclusion: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk...

"The message of the Bible makes two great promises.One you've already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven't discussed--the hope of eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?"

It's funny ... Grian and I are just two ordinary women who decided to have a conversation about our spiritual beliefs. No harm in that, right? Yet both of us were nervous, afraid of being attacked by the other, or ridiculed, or misrepresented. It's not often that pagans and Christians sit down to talk. We pretty much live and move and worship in separate circles.

I can't speak for Grian, but I also worried about what my Christian friends, family, and colleagues would say. I wondered if they would think it was okay to talk to a pagan or a witch, and to let them share their beliefs on my blog.

 
There are so many opinions and judgments and opinions and denominations floating around in the Christian world that it can be very confusing to know the right path.

This is how I solve that problem: I look to Jesus. What did he do? Did he have conversations with pagans? Yes. Did he argue with or judge them? No. He listened, he cared, he offered hope and healing. If they weren't interested, he let them walk away.

Being a Christ follower is at heart about relationship--with Jesus and with people. In that spirit, here's the last part of my conversation with Grian.

GRIAN: Now… I'm about to touch on another touchy part, but I want to be honest. Please forgive me if the statements that follow are offensive.

After much study I have come to see all mythology equally. What I mean by that is that I see the Bible as mythology – Jewish/Middle Eastern mythology to be more specific. For me it is no different than Greek or Roman mythology. I think that taking mythology literally is dangerous but that myth can also serve a wonderful purpose to the human psyche. Mythology can teach lessons through parables, yet they remain parables. I have a hard time with the literal interpretation of the Bible (or any myth for that matter) and thus cannot subscribe to Christianity itself. I honestly feel as though I grew out of those beliefs. I do know that sounds a little condescending and I really don't mean it to. It's simply the only way I know how to describe it. I respect and honor anyone who follows their faith with a true heart and mean no disrespect at all. 

SUSY: I'm not offended; in fact, I'm honored and grateful that you would open up and share your own personal beliefs with me. I think we could probably have a long conversation about the Bible, but maybe that's for another conversation. But let me just say that the Bible is widely accepted as a historical document, with more textual support than any other ancient document. In addition, it has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and it transforms lives.

The message of the Bible makes two great promises. One you've already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven't discussed--the hope of eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?

GRIAN: On the Bible… I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but I honestly believe the Bible (and any spiritual text for that matter) is entirely open to interpretation.

On the afterlife… I believe life continues through the process of reincarnation. I believe all life returns to the Goddess at the time of death and then the spirit chooses whether or not they are ready to live another lifetime. The ultimate result of those lifetimes is similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana. Trideans refer to this god-head level of existence as Completion. To sum up a bit, I believe in life after death – that energy cannot truly be created or destroyed, only transformed.

********************************
So that's it. Perhaps in the future we'll get to talk again, but my hope is that Grian's words will help Christians to understand some of the core beliefs of paganism. To end, here's a quick summary of some of the differences between Christianity and paganism:

• Pagans believe God is an energy force, existing and part of everything in the universe, and composed of both feminine and masculine aspects; Christians hold that God is a unique being, holy and all powerful, separate from his creation.
• Pagans believe Jesus was a good, holy, enlightened man. Christians believe Jesus to be the only son of God, the only sinless man who ever lived, who died sacrifically and rose again, conquering death.
• Pagans have no concept of sin or salvation. Christians believe we have all broken relationship with our creator God by going our own way, following our selfish natural impulses.
• Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.
• Paganism promises reincarnation and rebirth while advancing towards personal godhood. Christians believe human life and death happens once, and after that, judgment.
• Pagans feel that no savior or salvation is needed and that all religions lead in the same direction. Christians look to Jesus to save us, through grace, from our sin and despair. His grace, if accepted, results in the gift of eternal life. All religions are not the same; "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
• Pagans embrace magic and other occultic practices as the empowering practice of harnessing the energy of the universe to effect positive change. Christian fear and avoid any sort of magical practices as condemned in the Bible, looking instead to God alone to lead, guide, act, protect, heal, and bless.

 

Click here to read the earlier parts of "So a Goddess-centered pagan and a Christian sat down to talk..."

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3
• Part 4

 

Part 4: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk...

"I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood...
we are your normal, everyday people."

As we began to dig deeper into pagan philosophy, some of the major differences between what Grian and I believe began to surface. There's not much we agree on when it comes to sin, forgiveness, redemption, and evil. Grian believes that human problems and pain are natural, just part of an evolutionary system where the strong survive and the weak do not. And when you act badly or hurt someone, you pay for it in your next life, which is just another round in the cycle of reincarnation. Gather your courage and read on...

SUSY: Do you feel that Goddess worshippers or pagans are misunderstood by Christians? What are some of the common misconceptions?

GRIAN: Yes, I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood. I assume the average consensus among Christians is that most of us are silly, role-playing types of people who dress up like there's a Renaissance Festival every day. Or that we are focused on some sort of dark satanic sort of worship and obsessed with the gaining of personal power.

Instead we are your normal, everyday people – both men and women with families going about our daily lives and doing the best we can to be good people. I think there is a lot of fear among Christian communities in regards to Pagans, though that may be an oversimplification of the reality.

SUSY: Hmmm...I'm going to speak here for Christians I know, and I don't think I would say there is a conception that pagans are silly. I think your second view is much more likely. Christians familiar with the Bible are aware of what it has to say about both pagans and witches and want to honor God by following his guidelines to stay away from any sort of witchcraft or sorcery. Both the Old and New Testament ban any sort of idol worship, along with specific mention of the goddess (referring to the ancient Mesopotamian fertility cults). However, I think you're right that Pagans are misunderstood because many of us haven't taken the time to understand what you believe, and why, or taken the time to get to know you as people, rather than a simplistic label. That would definitely have described me in the past, and for that I apologize! God is a perfect balance of truth and grace; too often we emphasize truth and we lack grace. Both are necessary.

GRIAN: I understand what the Bible says about those things and respectfully have much different opinions. I believe the Bible says those things specifically to dictate what the beliefs of ancient Jewish (and later Christian) people should practice and believe. I consider it a guidebook by which a specific spiritual tradition is laid out not unlike many other sacred texts of antiquity and today. It is important for readers to understand that I do not believe in one true religion and hold many sacred writings in high esteem even if I don't subscribe to all of the ideas within them. I also believe that the Bible is written a certain way due to a competition of sorts where religious leaders were battling for followers with other faiths of the time. Of course it would say to stay away from other religions and forms of worship.

SUSY: What do you find in goddess worship that you didn't find in the church of your childhood? What is the appeal?

GRIAN: Okay, here is where some people might get very offended. Unfortunately, to answer the question appropriately it might be necessary to say some things that will be less than popular. Rest assured, no disrespect is intended.

I do not believe in sin in the traditional sense.

I believe if there is such a thing then it exists only in moments where we hurt another. I believe in Karma and the idea that you can carry your good and bad deeds around with you through lifetimes.

Since I don't believe in the idea of sin then it would also be obvious that I don't believe in original sin. That whole idea just really eats at me. I refuse to believe people are inherently evil. Sure we make mistakes, and lots of them.

But without those mistakes I don't believe we can evolve as spiritual beings. I actually think if you tell someone that they are inherently bad then they will eventually begin to believe you and may even use that idea as a crutch. How often could someone call a child evil or "devil child" before they are convinced they really are hell spawn? Maybe they will even do something bad and respond with "Well, I'm sinful and bad. What did you expect from me?" I am not implying that is a Christian thing to do… only using it as an example.

After saying that it will be no surprise to hear that I don't believe in hell or the devil. For starters, I believe the image of the devil is a perverted version of the ancient Horned God of Paganism and a demonization of a Goddess of Light or Venus. But we all know the victors write the history books. Beside the point, in all honesty I see the idea of the devil as a metaphor for the "darker" aspects of God/dess. I believe there can be no light without dark and vice versa. I believe both exist in all life and within God/dess.

Now by darkness I am not talking about "evil." I am talking about the kind of necessary destruction we see in Nature. Everything that lives must also die so that more life can be created. This "dark" element is necessary or there would never be any sort of transformation that leads to creation. All life would cease to exist. For something to be created other things must be destroyed or transformed to make something new.

SUSY: What do you do with random and senseless acts of evil, then? How do you explain serial killers or school/church shooters?

GRIAN:  I believe these people are sick, unbalanced, make poor choices, etc. I certainly don't believe Satan led them to do it or anything like that. No, that would be taking the responsibility away from the person who commits the crime. All actions have consequences and Karma will be dealt to those who decide to hurt others. Since I believe in Karma and reincarnation, I believe these people will have a chance to be held accountable and forced to learn from their mistakes through the course of many, many lifetimes.

Sin is a difficult concept for pagans to deal with. It's undeniable that people are born with an inner moral compass and all world cultures have a sense of right and wrong, consequences and justice. All of us have a sense that something is just not right as we witness the dark side of human nature and the myriad ways that people hurt each other. But how to fix what is broken inside us?

Pagans offer reincarnation, with a heavy payment schedule; Christians offer redemption, free.

Our culture often glorifies the idea of reincarnation, but Hindus understand its true horror, with the soul entrapped in endless cycles of pain and misery as you pay for your own misdeeds, and those of your ancestors (talk about slavery!). People also often forget to note that you're as likely to return a roach or a frog as a Princess. A while back I wrote a post about this called  The Dark Side of Reincarnation.

To the Christ follower, on the other hand, evil and pain are not natural. They are an aberration, a perversion of the way God intended for us to live. Sin has turned the world upside down and none of us can escape pain and problems. And this is where I really love the Gospel, because we don't have to fix it or pay for it. Jesus did, once and for all. We don't need karma, we don't have to suffer locked inside the endless cycles of reincarnation, and we don't have to fear death.

My interview with Grian concludes in my next post...

Click here to read the earlier parts of this interview:

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3

Part 3: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk...

"If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact  of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature?"

In this portion of the interview, Grian touches on some key differences between Christian and pagan beliefs. The interesting thing is that she doesn't see them as that different. Perhaps it's a generational issue; Grian is a decade or so younger than me, and it's often been observed that post-modern thought is characterized by syncretism, which means blending and merging various belief systems while minimizing the differences.

But it is probably also a function of where we believe truth comes from: Christians maintain our beliefs as outlined in the Bible, God's unchanging revelation of truth and the road map for our lives. Pagans, on the other hand, define their beliefs in terms of their individual, unique, and very personal experiences. There is no written standard, no bedrock to cling to.

When we get to the end of the interview, in another couple of posts or so, I'm going to summarize some of the key differences in our beliefs as revealed in this pagan/Christian conversation. I'll also highlight some of the similarities. After all, we're both spiritual seekers!

Here's Part 3...

SUSY: You said that you don't consider yourself a Wiccan. Do you have a particular spiritual belief system that you identify with? Can you describe it?

GRIAN: I consider myself a Goddess-centered Pagan and I practice Tridea. Tridea is a tradition of Goddess Religion that focuses on Nature and its cycles – finding spiritual meaning through seeing the Goddess in all things. Nature is considered the sacred text or blueprint by which the Goddess is understood and realized.

SUSY: I see a similarity between us here, in that Christians believe God reveals himself through nature (and also through people's consciences). However, we differ in that I believe God primarily reveals himself through the Bible, and through the life of Jesus. If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature? What do those things say about the Goddess?

GRIAN: As I mentioned earlier I believe in a "darker" aspect of the Goddess. I usually put that word in quotes because it can be misleading. This "darker" aspect deals primarily with the absolutely necessary reality of physical death (destruction) that leads to transformation (both physically and spiritually). A metaphor I often use is the burning of wood in a fire. The wood is destroyed yet also transformed into heat and ash. It has not ceased to exist, only taken on new form. Along those same lines; when a forest fire happens it is awful and scary, but eventually the forest is more fertile and full of life than it was before.

Another example can be seen in human creation. When a person is created the two cells that came from their parents have to be destroyed in order to create something new. None of us are still those two cells. We are the beings those two cells were transformed into.

The main point I am trying to get at is that nothing can be created without something first being destroyed. This is not a bad thing at all. It is how our planet works and how life itself works. While people mourn the victims of natural disasters and perhaps even fear the destructive qualities of nature; I believe everything must happen for a reason. I believe in natural order that may not always be pretty or pleasant, but it is necessary and part of Divinity's plan.

These ideas and practices are not new, nor are they specific to one religion. Instead they are considered universal and timeless. Terms that may help with these descriptions are Pantheism and Panentheism. Wikipedia has good definitions for both.

SUSY: What are some of your spiritual practices? Christians pray, tithe, read and study the Bible, take communion, and worship God together as a church. Do you have your own counterparts to these practices?

GRIAN: Absolutely. We pray as well; quite often and as a group. While Trideans don't focus on magic as a practice, it is a firm belief that spells (as many Wiccans and Pagans practice) are a form of prayer. The only difference is that there are some props involved. I often find this helpful in explaining the use of magic or spell work to people of other faiths. Again, I do not consider magic (as it is identified in Wicca) as a part of my religion. Instead I see magic as prayer with props and find only a small amount of distinction between it and the prayer practices of other faiths.

SUSY: One important distinction is that Christians pray to God with a request that he take action, and that His will be done, while it seems that pagans pray and cast spells in an effort to effect change themselves. To us prayer is a conversation, a child with his or her Dad, with no props needed. So, that leads me to ask--why the props?

GRIAN: I think the way Pagans pray is not that different at all. I can only speak for myself though. Personally, I also have conversations with Goddess and ask for her help. Many times I have completely surrendered to her will. But I also believe I have some power over situations as well. I think this is the main distinction. I don't feel subordinate to Goddess. Instead I am a part of her – I am Goddess as I believe everyone and everything else is. I do not believe in a separation between the Goddess and everything else, but instead a oneness of all things. So, I think what you're referring to when Pagans effect change themselves is because we believe we are also divine.

On the issue of props … Catholics use rosaries, some Christians may choose to focus on a crucifix during prayer, Buddhists use a collection of prayer items like oil lamps, incense, etc. I think these practices are more or less the same. Some people feel the need for elaborate spell setups that help them focus the intent of their prayers. Others like myself prefer a few simple candles, incense, and an altar figure or two. I enjoy the use of idols and even create them with my own hands. I don't see this as anything more than a way to focus meditative energy for prayer. Actually, when I create Goddess images I consider it a form of worship. I am an artist after all, and cannot fathom why this form of "idolatry" would be any different than renaissance painters portraying Christ and the Virgin in oils or egg tempera.

More from this interview in my next post. Here's a quick preview of questions in part 4:

• What are some of the common misconceptions Christians have about pagans?
• What do you find in goddess worship that you didn't find in the church of your childhood?

Part 2: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk...

I never tire of hearing stories about how people come to faith in Christ. Every story is unique and I find, over and over, that Jesus reaches out to us through friends and family. Many people I've talked to can point to a Christian grandmother or grandfather who was a powerful spiritual influence, often through years of persistent prayer and quiet lives of humble faith.

But Grian's story, continued in part 2 below, is different. While she had a Christian grandfather who modeled Christianity, she chose another path. Why? How could she taste the goodness and peace of a friendship with Jesus, and then reject Him? She explains...in her own words.

SUSY:  You mention a strong belief in God. What was your idea of God? Can you describe him, as you understood him at this stage of your life? Also, where did you learn about hell? Where did the fear of the Devil and damnation come from?

GRIAN:  I thought God probably looked like my grandfather; a tall man with kind eyes and an unconditional heart. But I also learned about the  more vengeful side of God that scared me as a child. As I spoke of before, I went to church and sometimes even attended Sunday school. I went to revival events like Fishnet in Virginia and learned about the concept of hell and the devil through language that I can only describe as being very "fire and brimstone." Later, as a teenager, I taught Vacation Bible School. So, I had a pretty decent education in Christianity.

As a teenager I began having recurring dreams about Jesus. They were good dreams and I would describe them as almost casual. Jesus and I would be walking down the streets of my small hometown and he would be dressed in jeans, a white t-shirt, and a pair of sandals. I still remember it very clearly. He would put his arm around my shoulders and say "Now, don't tell anyone I'm Jesus. I'm here for you right now and I want to give you my full attention." Then we would just talk about whatever I needed to talk about. Jesus would listen like a great friend and then walk me home.

SUSY:  Wow, Grian. You can guess that this part of your story really grabs my attention. As a teen, what did you know about Jesus? Did you perceive these dreams as real contact with Jesus? Or something else?

GRIAN:  I believe I knew who Jesus was when I was having these dreams. Did I think Jesus was really talking to me? I don't know, Maybe at the time I wanted to believe something like that. As I look back on it now I rationalize it as me needing some support in my life and my subconscious mind was meeting that need through a spiritual figure.

I was 17 years old when the Goddess came into my life. I had always been intrigued by things of a spiritual or otherworldly nature and I believed there was so much more to know that my spiritual upbringing had not given me. So when a friend introduced me to the concept of Wicca, I began soaking up all the knowledge I could get my hands on. I didn't consider myself Wiccan - and still don't - but I wanted to learn all that I could about the ideas surrounding it.

At first, it was almost all about the idea of magic and the unknown. It was exciting and I suddenly felt like I was beginning to connect with something bigger - with the pieces I had always sensed were missing. Basically, I learned that I too could be a mystic; that I could connect with God on a personal level without the need for an intermediary such as a pastor or priest. I realize now that my grandfather and my mother were pivotal in helping me realize this.

SUSY:  Did you believe that the God you were connecting with through Wicca, was the same God that your grandfather prayed to? Were your grandparents and mother aware of your new spiritual direction? Did they encourage or discourage you?

GRIAN:  My mother knew and never had a problem with it. My grandfather would not have understood and I saw no reason to break his heart or disappoint him so that I could be self-righteous. I have since spoken to my grandmother and she understands as best she can.

When I was 19 I moved to Germany to live with my new husband who was in the military. Yes, I was married very young, but I believe this also helped me come to my spirituality more quickly than most. Instead of dating and being absorbed in the search for love throughout early adulthood, I was able to find comfort in my relationship so that my own interests could be explored.

SUSY:  I was married at 20, and I totally agree with you. I feel like I missed out on a lot of heartache, the kind that I saw my friends go through with serial relationships. How did your husband view your spirituality?

GRIAN:  I think my husband thought it was some sort of girl-power trip at first, but he was supportive anyway. He later grew to respect my ideas and the dedication I put into becoming educated about my faith. He has always supported my spiritual pursuits - or any pursuit of mine for that matter. We have never had a problem over my spiritual choices, though I will admit I wish he was more interested in religion in general.

My interest in Wicca had continued through this time, though I had become tired of the idea of spells and such. I felt it was just a little too silly for me. I can hear all the Wiccans being upset with me about that one, so I promise to make my position on that more clear at another time.

Anyway, I was searching for something more. I knew of the Goddess and had learned about her various aspects and faces through mythology, but I had yet to connect with her on that deeper spiritual level. Then one day, while walking in the woods behind our apartment building, I felt her there with me. As I bent down to admire the wild Lily of the Valley, I suddenly felt that I was not alone and never had been - that I was connected to all things and all things were one. Within nature I began to see the Goddess everywhere and in seeing her I began to truly see myself.

To be continued....

Click here to read Part 1 of this conversation between Susy and Grian.

So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk....

Grian is a goddess-centered pagan woman who lives across the country from me. Via the wonder of the internet, our paths have crossed. We have a lot in common; we're both wives and mothers. Grian is a talented fine artist who works under the name Lee Hutchings; I'm a graphic artist in my day job. We're both very spiritual, and we write and blog about our spiritual beliefs. There the similarities end; Grian is a goddess-centered pagan; I'm a Christ-centered evangelical Christian.

But we're both curious about each other's spirituality, and I think we both have lots of misconceptions about each other's beliefs. I wanted to learn more about Grian and her spiritual journey, so she graciously agreed to answer some of my questions. We had lots to talk about, so this is the first part of a multi-post blog conversation.

SUSY: Is Grian your real name? It sounds very Celtic.

GRIAN: Nope. It's a variant of a name I chose many years ago. I use it as an alias online but I am certainly not trying to hide my identity. My given name is Lisa. Pretty much everyone other than my mother calls me Lee. Oh, and yes it is Celtic. It is the Irish word for the sun.

SUSY: Can you describe yourself a bit? Perhaps tell us a little bit about your family, job, education, personality? Where you live? Or anything else that might help us get to know you...

GRIAN: I am 30 years old and I live in Upstate, NY with my family. I have one child; a daughter who is eight years old. I am also Mom to two dogs and three cats. I have been married for 11 years to my high school sweetheart. I am an artist and during the day I work for an art supply company. A few years ago my husband and I bought a house with my mother and we all share almost two acres of property together. In between raising a family and making art I have been pursuing a degree in fine arts. Personality wise... many people have described me as a free sprit and one person even dubbed me "the girl who is always trying to figure out the meaning of life." I suppose I have always been a seeker and I am quick to become absorbed in anything I choose to study.

SUSY: I guess I'd like to begin just knowing more about you and your "faith journey," as we call it in the church. Can you share your spiritual story? What is your background? Where and when did you start on your current spiritual path? What drew you to your current beliefs and practices? And where do you hope to go with it in the future?

GRIAN: Firstly, this is a great question and a great place to start - at what I guess would be considered the beginning.

I was raised by a single mother and for the first years of my life we lived with my grandfather. My spiritual story begins with him.

My grandfather was a devout Christian and every night as I lay in bed I heard him talking to God in the next room. He would literally kneel at his bedside and pray out loud in a dialogue with God. From this practice of my grandfather's I learned about unabashed faith. He was never ashamed that the other people in our house could hear him praying, he only knew that it was important to connect with God in prayer. I consider this one of the most important spiritual lessons of my life.

My mother was not a churchgoer. Though my grandmother had made sure I was baptized Methodist, my mother had always told me that we didn't need to go to church to believe in God. I think she always felt there was a lot of hypocrisy going on within the walls of churches. She grew to believe this through personal experiences, but she has never really told me the details of those experiences. My mother would later realize that her beliefs were best described as Agnostic. I believe this is an accurate label since she always taught me that there was a God (something bigger than me that created the universe) but we were not a specific denomination in any way.

SUSY: Did your mom's negative experiences with the church have an impact on you? And, did the Bible have an impact on your childhood at all?

GRIAN: I don't think my mother's experiences had a real impact on me. She didn't care if I went to church and I would regularly attend with my grandfather. I read the Bible at an early age. I was always aware of the stories within it, the Ten Commandments, etc.

When I was a child I always had a strong belief in God. I prayed very often in my head throughout the day and before sleep as a regular practice. Though my faith was strong, I was also always afraid that I was doing something wrong that would get me sent to Hell. I was often terrified of the Devil and the whole idea of damnation.

More from Grian in my next post....